The information is out there in the public domain. Andrew Spooner’s story doesn’t really say anthing new or anything that isn’t a fact. Sure - it does bring everything together and puts it into the media spotlight, but that’s his job.

Without the input from the victims family would the story have been published? That’s what holds this story together. Like it or not, based on the simple facts, Thailand is a relatively dangerous place to live. However, I personally feel the story is far from balanced - and that not be Andrew’s fault as he said that his story was edited to exclude what might have been comments to balance the story. Why not speak to some of the thousands of people here who live a trouble-free life? Why? Because it doesn’t make good copy. I know that (from 18+ years in the media) and so does the writer.
Anyway, I’d finally like to thank Andrew for commenting publically. I find it refreshing and welcome when a writer is able to comment publically and defend his story. Well done Sir.

I fully agree with Matt and disagree entirely with Andrew. What Andrew has failed to grasp, is the state of a lot of Brits who come to Thailand. Unlike Kenya or the Vatican, Thailand often gets the worst kind of British tourists under the sun.
A lot come here, get intoxicated day-in-day out (gets mouthy with local Thai guys, gets murdered) get married with dodgy bar girls (typical: wife kills Brit scenario). Gets invlolved in illegal business (gets killed by competitor) etc…

Thailand has a high murder rate and some obnoxious Brits who come should realize that before getting themselves in dangerous situations.

Absolutely, as a journalist myself, i’m sick and tired of the relentless sensationalist reporting about Thailand done by Western reporters who can’t think of anything lese to write about.

Figures don’t lie, so I don’t think Andrew is making a sensation story out of it. But also, just blaming Thailand and the UK foreign office for not warning is a bit simple in my opinion.

I would like to know how the figures are, compared to other nationalities. In his reaction, Andrew says: “I did state that Thailand is a safe place for the vast majority of tourists”. Then why is it so dangerous for Britions? I tend to strongly agree with the reaction of Stephen Cleary, here above.

Thailand is very popular by Dutch tourists, but I could find only accounts of two Dutch murdered in Thailand.

One was a businessman, murdered by the lover of his (Thai) wife, the other one was a well known criminal, executed by his former “friends”. Both things are not unusual in The Netherlands.

Don’t get me wrong, I’m not saying it’s the Britons own faults to get murdered in Thailand, but I just wonder if there are other explanations for the high number of murdered Britons.

Do you have anything to support that :

However, you have to take into account the sort of people who come to Thailand. Thailand attracts a lot of shady characters and many people come here without understanding the country, doing things they wouldn’t do back home and ending up in trouble.

Of all the people I have met in Bangkok and travelling around the coutnry very few were of the shady sort. I met students, backpacker, NGO workers, and the kind.

It is as much a cliche as saying that Thailand is a wonderful place where everything is perfect.

Now that people don’t understand the country could be said of an Englishman crossing the channel and spending his holiday in rural France…

It is all a bit more complex.

~r

So now it is all clear to me. The girl taking a stroll on the beach two years ago who got viscously raped and murdered by the two Thai fishermen was actually to blame, not them. The girl who was beaten, robbed and burnt to death by a heroin taking monk in Kanchanaburi 10 years ago was equally to blame (presumably why he was released a year into his life sentence). And maybe that girl in Kanchanaburi last year who watched her boyfriend get shot dead by a pissed Thai policeman and then got run over several times by same policeman before being shot several times and killed was also in the wrong. Now I understand, Thais are ever wrong. It is in fact the Brits’ fault for being in Thailand in the first place.

Come on, lets get reasonable here. If the original article had said that more Brits are killed in the US than anywhere else none of you would have batted an eyelid. AND to get things into perspective check this out:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gun_violence
Thailand has the third highest level of firearm homicides in the world, almost ten times that of the US (per 100,000 of pop). These are UN stats by the way. Not bad for a peace loving utopia really.

“Thai visa reports an incident in Pattaya involving 3 Estonian and 15 Thai in a bar in Soi 15. I can’t wait for comment saying that they were probably members of the “Russian Mafia” that is taking over the “Thai Mafia”.”

More likely they were three guys who got into an argument with a doorman at a go-go bar…not a good idea anywhere. They didn’t know the doorman’s pals were waiting around eager to bash a few farangs.

“It was on one of these trips that Charnaud met Laoruang. “Apparently she was working as a security guard in a department store,” says his sister, Hannah.”

Just to clear up this point - they met years and years ago. One of the parties involved is dead the other is serving a life sentence. Suffice to say, asking the dead man’s sister where he met his wife is as close to the truth as we’ll get.

While there is no suggestion that Charnaud was in any way involved in this world – “Toby could never be called a sex tourist,” says Hannah, “I can’t imagine he went to one strip club the whole time he was in Thailand, it just wasn’t his style”

The point I make very clear in the article is that foreigners can’t always decipher the dangers in Thailand. The couple shot and murdered in Kanchanaburi by the “friendly” local bar owning cop - he was smiling a lot and getting them drunk for a few nights before he shot them - is one such example.

I also made the point in the piece (edited out) that Thailand attracts a lot of people who engage in risky behaviour. Thailand, to that end, is partly a victim of its own friendliness, letting in a various assortment of nasty characters. It must be pointed out that of the 17 murders mentioned in the piece only one or two seemed to have a criminal underworld connection.

However, Toby Charnaud was a decent person. Every single person I spoke to about him said that. I spoke to a massive, wide range of people and Toby was not dodgy in any way whatsoever. His murder was a terrible and needless event that seemed to be driven purely by greed.

As for Stephen Cleary’s comment and I think this should be very clear to anyone who checks my publishing record - I have been writing positive stories FOR YEARS on Thailand. It really is his problem that he has failed to find them or read them. They’ve all been published in the national press in the UK and can be found on the Guardian or Independent websites. And I believe, because of that, my comments carry more weight. Just slagging me off without any basis cuts no ice and doesn’t serve any purpose whatsoever.

Finally, when I wrote this story every single Thai I spoke to was supportive of it. Many encouraged me and said I should write it telling me in private there was a problem that needed to be addressed. The only negative comments I have read so far have all come from ex-pats not Thais. TAT and the Thai govt knew I was writing the story and never once threatened me nor tried to warn me off.

Once again, it must be said if the stats didn’t add up the way they did there would be no story.

In the time that it took you to think silly bleeding hearts, 2 kids under 12 in Thailand died of preventable viruses that were imported from Europe many decades ago. 17 Brits murdered? Such a big fuss from ex-pat patriots with hands over hearts and unwavering allegiance to the Queen? I am so sick of this look after our own attitude in all cultures. We’re all dying here there and everywhere due to murder, disease and ‘natural’ causes too (like murder and disease isn’t.) That it makes it into red white and black print simply highlights the callous attitude that we of baby boomer ilk take towards something so solemn and true.

If you knew the murdered
If you were personally affected
You will understand the nature of death as a statistic
If you didn’t know them and were not moved by their histories intertwining with yours, then don’t cheapen their story with your phony sympathy.

Cheers big ears.

So do we blame unscrupulous Thais for taking advantage of naive Westerners or do we blame Westerners for being gullible? Andrew thinks that highlighting the problem will make visitors to LOS more careful. Or maybe he thinks articles in the Guardian will make the Thai police less corrupt? I think you could staple a list of dos and don’ts to said visitors with a nose-ring and it wouldn’t make a dent in the statistics.

Andrew…one more kick at the can if I may. You have a vested interest in Thai tourism. I don’t. Perhaps you think an article in the Guardian and subsequent discussion on forums like this will make a difference. I don’t. I don’t think anything the British government says will help either. Am I cynical? Yes, I suppose I am. I’ve spent a lot of time in LOS and I still like it but the rose-tinted glasses are long gone. I think Westerners will keep getting in trouble there. I just can’t pin the blame on any one factor.

I thought your perspective on Toby Charnaud was fair. Very nice guy. A little naïve though IMO.

Grasshopper - so why are you giving my article any attention then?
And how could I possibly cover the whole range of murder and death across the whole planet, huge metaphysical issues certainly worthy of discussion, in the remit of a 2000 word magazine article in a Sunday newspaper??
Maybe you, with all your evident wisdom, could show myself and the entire media industry a way around this perplexing conundrum?

http://www.thisislancashire.co.uk/mostpopular.var.1440705.mostviewed.blackburn_man_murdered_in_thailand.php

James Hall was murdered on Chang Island. The guy shot in hua hin was Martin Connolly. So make that 18.
http://findarticles.com/p/articles/mi_qn4158/is_20051226/ai_n15960994

It’s only seems to be a lot of westerners who have a perception of Thailand being safe. Most Thais I have spoken to seem to see it as a dangerous place.

Well that last murder recorded was in May 2006, so no recorded murder of a Brit in Thailand for 20 months!

That’s what you can do with stats that are so low in number.

IMHO, a ridiculous article that focusses on murder where the roads are far far more dangerous.

Right at the top of your article does it not say in bold?

“At least 17 Britons have been murdered in Thailand since 2003 – including Toby Charnaud”

2003- (=2003-now, right?)

Only later in the article does it say 2003-2006.

As for David’s comment on Martin Connolly, he was murdered in 2007. Yes, i’ve commented him too in the 5 years - so, keeping the statistics up-to-date.

I can’t find anything on the Internet about Terence Ramsey and Michael Pitts, who died of unknown causes. How can ’cause unknown’ mean murder?

Andrew Spooner: I give your article attention because I think it highlights and promotes cultural and developmental differences as reasoning for a universal crime. (As seen on the interpretations posted here which I was more responding too) It buys into Huntington way to much to be taken with any seriousness. I don’t like reading this sort of thing, but I do so I can question it.

As for making 2000 words fit into a Sunday newspaper column, what about some exploration of biologists using telescopes and astronomers microscopes!!! It would make for just as good, apathetic, latte drinking, perusing material.

Comment to Stephen Cleary - the data I used in my piece was for the 4years from 2003 to 2006 - 17 murders makes just over 4 a year. There is something between 40 and 50 murders year on year - I think the average is something like 45. So, the Thai percentage is approaching 10%.
In the piece I could’ve made more of the fact that 1000 Brits have died from all causes in 4 years. I could’ve pointed out that the definitions of murder for the Thai police are far more slippery than in the UK. For instance, some cases in that 1000 would be considered corporate manslaughter in the West due to poor safety standards.
As pointed out by David and myself, Thailand is a dangerous place for Thais as well. 5000murders a year is very very high and that’s before you get onto road accidents. My concern in a British newspaper was with British citizens.

As for the list please refer to this par in my piece “In the years 2003 to 2006, 17 of these victims were UK nationals, according to the FCO. These murders include a
sexually motivated killing of a young British woman; a Thai police
officer executing two backpackers in a crowded street; shootings,
throat cuttings and two cases of other Westerners murdering UK
nationals; and, more pertinently, several cases of Thai wives or their
family members slaying British husbands.”

Then there is this “On average, about 50 civilian UK nationals are murdered around the world each year (excluding terrorist attacks). This means that almost
10 per cent of all murders of Britons abroad are committed in Thailand
- a chilling figure, given that Thailand comprises only 0.6 per cent
of all foreign travel from UK shores.

The murder rate is perhaps surprising; of the 420,000 annual British
travellers to Thailand, a tiny percentage are the victims of crime.
The Thais are friendly and engaging hosts and, with their famous
beaches, handsome resorts and low prices bringing in millions of
tourists, it is easy to understand why we have fallen in love with the
country, and currently comprise its highest proportion of Western
visitors.”

You also need to understand that there was a lot of stuff I wrote that was edited out. Any journalist (which you claim to be) would realise this but you seem to have a bee in you bonnet.

Finally Stephen, I was just curious if you’d be referring to the 30+ positive articles that I’ve written on Thailand for the UK national press in your blog? After all, not to do that, would be sensationalising my work and not giving a clear, overall picture. It would in effect be shoddy, cheap journalism without any balance whatsoever.

The comments on here are now getting beyond ridiculous and I am afraid my attempt to give some insight seems to have failed miserably. I now understand why writers such as myself don’t bother to answer to blogs.

In response to Just too much (or is it Aka: Andrew Spooner, Aka David). Yes, this is getting ridiculous because of yours and your alias figures.
5,000+ is so high, why?
I have already checked. That number is the amount of reports which are originally filed under ‘murder’. It is normal procedure for the police to file as ‘murder’ anything which is close ie… manslaughter, road crash etc… Later of course, after investigation, the charge is changed.

How come Andrew (or is it David or Just too much) that you wrote this “I now understand why writers such as myself don’t bother to answer to blogs”

Now, who started all this off, all this answering to this blog - you or Matt?

Sorry Stephen, but despite your accusation I only ever post or write in my own name.

It’d be great to read some of your stories published in the UK national press that cast Thailand in a positive light. Please send me the links - you’re a journalist after all and I’m sure you must have something published in the UK.

I’d be very happy to send you a link to any of the many positive stories I’ve had published in the UK press. Some are quite good, if I may say so myself. There’s one on the massage school at Wat Pho; another on a very cool homestay programme near Mae Hong Son. Then there’s one on Hua Hin, another on Thai Islands, and even another on a mahout school in the North. All good positive stories about Thailand published in the UK national press.

Or are you only interested in the negative one?

It’s a question I think you should be brave enough to answer.

Oh and the 5000 murders a year didn’t include the 1000s who were extra-judicially murdered in the war on drugs. I did think of factoring them in but as nobody has ever given anything approaching an exact figure it was best left out. Several of my Thai friends thought I should have included them though.

Would you now like to try and deny the war on drugs deaths as well? Are they another attempt to besmirch the name of Thailand?

It is also interesting that you have access to better information than the UN and the British Government and the Thai Police. Astonishing in fact. Be great to see all your sources - mine are all quoted.

Spooner, your article doesn’t quote naff all besides the 5,000+ ‘murders’ . Sorry, to tell you again like, but a source from the Thai Royal Police has informed me that the quota for ‘murders’ is the number of suspects who were originally charged with ‘murder’ - he explained that the Thai police often file the highest possible charge possible against the suspect, regardless to whether sb runover sb by accident.

As for denying the war on drugs! Foogers-me, i never mentioned a thing about that!

I will deny one thing though- i’m not a sensationalist.

Stephen,

It is now several days since I posted the above and I’ve had no response from you.

Shall I assume you don’t want to take up my offer?

Andrew

Hi Andrew

Yes I read Stephen Cleary’s piece and it does seem that he doesn’t understand the basic tenets of journalism. He offers no evidence or sources and seems to base his entire body of work on the workings of his own imagination.

I find it bizarre that he has managed to break out of the world of blogs and be seen to offer some kind of worthwhile comment.

I note he didn’t have the courage to mention either my name or the name of my paper in his ridiculous story nor is he willing to even engage in any proper debate.

There’s a simple reason why he won’t do that - because he knows full well he can’t stand up his story. Hence him not taking me up on my offer to contact the Indy with his ‘evidence’ which at the moment consists of him looking at a few websites and having a chat (he has no notes or tapes) with an unnamed police officer.

You really couldn’t make this up.

And, for the record, he also sent me an email in which he made disparaging personal comments about you.

Andrew