Thailand's age-old bar-girl debate
Kitty shook up a hornets’ nest yesterday with her post about the evils of bar girls. Though what she said was nothing that hasn’t been said before, it’s a topic that still has the potential to stir up hot debate. As this has been all I've been thinking about since I woke up from my nap, I decided to blog about it.
What the debate comes down to is whether you think there is something inherently wrong with prostitution and, in turn, prostitutes. I took issue with what Kitty wrote in a subsequent argument on MSN because, in her mind, bar girls are bad people doing something wrong.
Maybe this will polarize my readership here, but what is so wrong with prostitutes and prostitution? Having known and spoken with girls who have worked as prostitutes, I feel safe in my assertion that they are just normal people doing what they can to survive and get something for themselves, their families, whatever. Really, it is, for the most part, their choice.
You could argue that there is nothing wrong with prostitution in controlled circumstances, in Thailand or anywhere else, because of this taboo that comes out of dated, idealistic views of sex. These are the views that make prostitution dangerous because they try and force it underground, out of view of the rest of our prissy-clean society.
As a society we like to think that people don’t sometimes need and want sex, and if they do, then there must be something wrong with them if they don’t fit some image we have in our mind of people we deem worthy of having sex.
Those farang-Thai couples you see in the street are all too easy to judge, and having been judged and insulted myself when I’ve been out with a Thai girl, I assure you it’s unpleasant. It’s easy to point at the Thai girl and call her a money-grabbing whore, but actually, how is she so different to you or me? She wants security. She may be over-compensating with excessive levels of shopping, but that’s nobody’s business.
Becoming a prostitute is a choice except in the most extreme of circumstances, and I don’t think anybody could refute that, but you could argue that it’s unfair to look down on this choice. People who turn to prostitution do so for their own reasons.
So, what do you think? Is this even worth bringing up… again?
Techno' tags: Thailand, Prostitution
Tricky subject. Here in the Netherlands, prostitution is legal. As long as women (and men) are not forced to do it, it's not much of a problem I think.
But what if prostitution is the only way out in big financial problems? Couldn't you call that forced prostitution?
Having a Thai girlfriend (no bargirl) I know how people can look at us. But she don't care and neither do I.
Ok, I have stopped crying now despite the fact that I am still very sad.
So, let's get back to the topic of this discussion. If you look back at ancient history, some civilised societies, in fact, worshiped prostitution; some even gloriously idolised a woman who practised the oldest profession in the world. Later, attitudes towards this practice somehow changed during a particular era: the advent of a new force, also known as "religionism".
Personally, I do not mind a working girl or anybody who has sex for money as long as it is between two consenting adults. Having been born in an area where there was a lot of sex trade, I can say that these people are not much different from any of us. They do not bother you; and you do not cause them any trouble. Everybody is happy. Why does anybody care? Of course, some will argue that it is a dirty thing to conduct yourself as a whore; it is degrading, but human beings have sex, don't they? It is not good that some people try to restrain themselves from their own desire to copulate; it is human nature. If people try to curb their natural instinct too much, they might turn into perverts. Prostitution allows randy beings like us to let steam out of our system.
I hope one day Thailand will legalise this oldest profession like they do in the Netherlands.
if she has a better choice, will she still choose to become prostitute instead, thinking logically for whatever reasons that she might have? and will we as another person to help any girl not to be a prostitute and for her to have better life,or we just ignore her and let her become prostitute forever? Will we say the same if it happens that prostitute is our sisters, brothers,close friends and someone dear to our heart..what will be our reaction ? still the same ? that it is her choice?
can people like Kitty, yourself and myself do something to make differences in those people life or we let them to live life as per their own choices, and we keep saying that those are bad people :)…easier said than done, but just my thought and thinking
I have already posted a response to your comment at Kitty's blog.
It's generally a demeaning occupation – just look at the prevalence of drug addict prostitutes in western countries.
I also have a gripe regarding those that say they do it because they have no choice because they (and their family) are so poor.
This brings up two points:
1. There are plenty of others in the same circumstances who choose not to take up prostitution, so clearly it was not their only choice.
2. If they are so poor, why waste so much money on alcohol, drugs, gambling, dresses etc?
I think I have a problem with weak men more than I do prostitutes. Once you ascribe to prostitution you have basically lost your 'hunter' status.
As products of their environment, don't people fall into prostitution just as easily as they fall into for instance… journalism!? While prostitution is immoral I don't think that you can start criticizing another persons ethical decisions without looking at your own.
Consequently, the debate is irrelevant unless someone is on a save the prostitutes quest where of course virtue shines out of their backside. Don't most of those stories end with the person on the quest becoming a martyr nailed to a cross – or in this case, a giant Louis Vuitton billboard? No? Hmm. At least Kitty tried.
Under whatever circumstances, becoming a prostitute is a choice. (This is how I think of this profession)… People under the same terrible situation might choose differently. I don't think we should judge prostitutes as one group of whatever kind of people some may think they are. Although this is what they choose to do, they are not less of a person than anyone of us. Thus, we shouldn't judge them. Condeming or encouraging them do not make the world a better place. Giving them better choices… some of them might choose differently.
As far as I'm concerned, as long as everyone is consenting in a sexual act, play ball. (Children and non-human animals cannot consent so I draw the lines there.)
I imagine that prostitution would have less negative effects if it wasn't marginalized and illegal. Much like drugs, half the reason so much negativity surrounds the profession is because it is a black market. Of course I've never really been anywhere where prostitution is legalized save for Nevada and even there it's not quite legal. Maybe the person from the Netherlands can help with the issue.
Out of personal taste I don't have sex with prostitutes. I just don't like the idea that I'm paying for sex, like it's some expensive meal, or a movie…. That and there's no connection, nothing behind the sex. It's not so much that I like the sex, but what the sex means, the emotional feed.
As Grasshopper said, you lose that hunter status, and I really like the hunt. (Well said Grasshopper)
If I was single and in Thailand, I would have a problem hooking up with any Thai. Mainly because it seems everyone, including most Thais, assume that all Farang-Thai relationships are based on money. And secondly, how can I know that they really love me, rather than loving that I'm farang?
I was once told by a female co-worker that a friend of hers used to work as a sideline girl while in University (Starts with a C and ends with a N). Did she need the money? No. Was she from Isan? No.
I asked why her friend did that and the response given by the friend "It was fun!"
How's that for a spin on the debate…
if she's so concerned about this shyt maybe she should get her ass off her chair, toss that cosmo or vogue or other idiotic magazine aside with the latest articles about what her hero lindsay lohan wiped her ass with that morning, sacrifice her urge to regurgitate shyt, and go out and do something (like tell them they don't have to do this you know, you can always work as a salesperson shyt, cus they are dumb ass country peoples obviously and it wouldn't have crossed their minds) so that these girls don't have to succumb to selling their bodies and corrupt that bimbo's line of sight. :D
also to read more interesting non regurgitated shyt i'd recommend preyanka's dreaming of hanoi, a very interesting blog, unfortunately if you're looking for rants against the scum of society, you wouldn't find such stuff there. adios.
That's one major problem with foreigners they come here believing that all the girls they meet in the bar have been forced into selling their bodies because of the poverty shit.
95% of poor girls don't bother working in any bar as they have self-dignity and find themselves other kinds of employment.
Selling your body is easy quick money ie 1,500 for ten minutes with a fat 60 year-old farang vs 200 baht for 12 hours in a factory.
Bargirls are the lowest of the low, lazy money-grabbing women who are out to thief money from dumb Farang who think they are really beautiful.
On the other hand i suppose they are ideal for each other.
wtf do u get ur numbers from james? 95 %, did u go do a survey? u r quite well informed it seems on the costs and minutes, r u a bargirl or one of those fat foreigners? more likely a foreigner who got scammed off of his money from the gist of your hate and malice towards them. i think u and and that bimbo (that blogger) should get married, damn nazis. if things were upto u people we'd probably have concentrations camps all over the place. :D
I don't get the stigma about dating Thais. I have a Thai GF and I don't feel any prying eyes when we walk in public.
Also, look at it this way. How many western women do you see with Thai guys? Keep thinking…..keep thinking….
My point: women look more for security in a man, and no matter how you spin things, money is important, western women aren't excluded from this fact. If western women were idealistic and 100% romantic, you'd see a lot more walking around with Thai guys. No, you don't – because money and security matter, and always will.
Ultimately it comes down to two personalities and how they get on if a relationship is going to be GOOD (never mind last). If they get on fine, any "stigma" about being seen in public is totally irrelevant.
I don't really believe that there could ever be a situation where there wouldn't be any other choice but 'joining the profession'. Maybe I'm hopelessly naieve, but the number of options we have under any given situation is at least in part up to our own imagination, daring etc. Everybody's options are limited to a certain time and place, it's not about the options, it's about what you do with them and if you can come up with new, exciting choices.
As far as better choices go, should I feel sorry for a bargirl because her 'menu' of options is more limited than mine? Should anyone feel sorry for me because I'm a lowly English teacher(and not even a good one at that) instead of say, a hot shot novellist or succesful stockbroker? I feel as sorry for 'poor' bargirls, anymore than a millionaire would feel sorry for me because I didn't own a yacht. That's not out of callousness, it's out of respect for bargirls and their lives. They can make their own decisions, thank you. Nobody needs my or anyone else's pity (a disgusting concept anyway), least of all bargirls. Hats off to the ladies instead – RESPECT, now there's a concept.
Oh on Grashoppers's beloved 'hunter'-status – that's just macho bullshit as far as I'm concerned. The human race left the African savannahs a long time ago. Nobody in this day and age an properly claim the title 'hunter'. We're all more or less civilised human beings by now (you more than me I'm sure) and if I want a meal I don't have to use my spear, I just go to a 7-11 for a cup of noodles. If I don't like a guy's opinions I don't have to bash his skull in, I leave a note on an internet message board. Same with anything else.As far as 'hunting' in relationships: I don't have to drag possible partners off into my lair, I ask them out for dinner. I'm not 'hunting' girls because I don't consider girls a form of 'prey'. It takes two to tango.
I consider sleeping with a bargirl a bit like having a nice expensive meal in a restaurant. I could spend an afternoon in the kitchen cooking up a great meal, but sometimes I just can't be bothered. Nothing wrong with treating yourself every once in a while methinks.
And yes I've had real 'proper'(eg. university educated, middleclass if that's proper enough)girlfriends too. They usually find my interest in bargirls inbetween relationships a source of amusement, rather than condemnation, as long as I don't fuck around during our relationship-I'm pretty good at monogamy actually. I guess I have been incredibly lucky with girlfriends so far, knock on wood.
(sorry for possible spelling and grammar mistakes in this long pompous response)